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arpz
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
614 posts
Joined: Aug, 2012
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 Posted - 2020/01/28 : 10:43:38
I wouldn't say KF is saving the scene, I'd say it's building a new one. I think this 'buy vinyl if you want digital' model is actually quite a good one - I don't play vinyl anymore but I have been buying every release and building up a collection, it's adding value to music again and lots of the releases sell it out in a short amount of time.
Breakbeat driven hardcore is buzzing at the moment
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music - http://www.soundcloud.com/arpz stupid - http://fikshun.me
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GrahamC
Senior Member
United Kingdom
321 posts
Joined: Dec, 2007
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Posted - 2020/01/28 : 11:21:07
quote:
Originally posted by arpz:
I wouldn't say KF is saving the scene, I'd say it's building a new one. I think this 'buy vinyl if you want digital' model is actually quite a good one - I don't play vinyl anymore but I have been buying every release and building up a collection, it's adding value to music again and lots of the releases sell it out in a short amount of time.
Breakbeat driven hardcore is buzzing at the moment
I bought the last one yesterday :-D
Now I get the 'model' it's fine and I will try punting the record for a fiver when it turns up!
Quite agree, the breakbeat stuff I have picked up recently has been awesome and I will keep looking for more!
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DJ Saiyan
Junior Member
Canada
144 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
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Posted - 2020/01/29 : 22:51:01
Hi, Saiyan here. I have been running KFA for the past two years (and also Malice) while Chris focuses on Kniteforce, Knitebreed, Remix, etc. I was responsible for this release, so let me clear a few things up.
Kniteforce, Knitebreed, Remix, etc. are all physical media labels. They don't release digitally, barring the odd CD release that does end up on the stores.
This model works extremely well by the way, as every release since we up and decided to throw caution to the wind and start releasing vinyl regularly again has turned a profit, enough that we've been able to keep doing it, and will be able to keep doing it for some time to come. Call it a dead format if you like, but people sure seem to like buying it.
When Chris and I decided to start doing KFA vinyl again (as every fifth release), we opted for sort of a hybrid model. The vinyl goes out first, without digitals available. It's intended to be a physical product. If you don't want the vinyl that's cool, you're welcome to just take the digital files and sell it on, lots of people do that.
Where KFA differs from the rest of the Kniteforce family of labels is that it is predominately NOT a physical media label. We do CD singles, sure, but we also release digitals day and date, and we've sort of conditioned people to that model. So most KFA buyers, who are not also Kniteforce, etc buyers, expect there to be a digital release, as that's how they've been buying stuff. So we reached a compromise: we'd do the vinyl using the Kniteforce model, with digitals available only with vinyl purchase, but then once the vinyl sold out, we'd release the tracks out to the stores for people who really, really, REALLY don't want to buy the physical product, something Kniteforce and the other labels do NOT do, those are physical media exclusive.
The Stargazer vinyl absolutely flew, so we were able to schedule the digital release a lot sooner than we normally would with KFA vinyl in the modern era. I think the other ones we did (KFA90 - Jungly Pea Too, and KFA95 - True Skool EP 13) still aren't out digitally, as we still have stock remaining. So you are able to get it now at all the download stores, if you choose.
This release format is something we have been upfront about from the start. It was in the very first post we made announcing we were going to do KFA vinyl again, and I have mentioned it again many times since then. It's not some big secret. If you want to wait for digital-only for KFA stuff you can do that, but you're in for a wait.
As for the 1000 GBP thing, this is a quirk of Bandcamp and it not being actually set up for how we use it. You can't upload full length tracks and have them freely available to everyone who purchases a physical product without also setting a price and selling them separately. There's no way to do it. So we use a workaround that a number of other labels use, which is to price the digitals so high no one will ever buy them. We don't expect anyone to pay 1000 GBP for some wavs, nor do we want you to. That's ridiculous. INTENTIONALLY ridiculous. It's just something we have to do to make sure that when people buy a record they can get the files right away, without us having to send them directly (which would eat up so much time and we're already very busy), or waiting for a sheet with a download code, which we used to do, but that had its own problems.
As for the Reese Remix not being included with the digital release, that's down to legality. I had to negotiate licensing agreements with both Kevin Energy and CLSM in order to do this release, as between them they owned the original recordings and various other rights to the original and Reese mixes. Those agreements allowed us to include those versions on the vinyl, and digitally with purchase of the vinyl, but did NOT include rights to sell them separately on other stores. We can only sell the new mixes that we had commissioned, as we own those and can use them as we see fit.
Anyways hope that clears everything up. Wanna take one quick second to congratulate Clive on a highly successful release, and thank him for letting me be a part of finally getting this tune on wax, where it should have been ages ago.
Oh! The CD-R thing. Yes, we still use CD-Rs, but have changed manufacturers and the one we use now uses much better quality blanks. I haven't had anyone complain to me about the CD becoming unreadable since I took over. It is generally good practice to rip the CD when you get it though, just in case. But if you happen to forget to do that and your CD copy stops working, hit me up through the KFA Facebook page with a screencap of your purchase receipt and I'll happily sort out the wavs for you. :)
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You Better Run For Cover and Duck, We're Droppin Bombs Now
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DJ Saiyan
Junior Member
Canada
144 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
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Posted - 2020/01/30 : 17:36:10
Don't sweat it dude. I'm an old USH poster, I've had plenty worse directed my way lol
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You Better Run For Cover and Duck, We're Droppin Bombs Now
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teknotik
Starting Member
United Kingdom
2 posts
Joined: May, 2003
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Posted - 2020/01/31 : 21:17:57
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Saiyan:
Hi, Saiyan here...
Thanks for taking the time out to reply so comprehensively!
The CDRs I?ve had problems with were some of the very first KFA releases from around 2004 to 2006 (the ?Files? and ?Past Present Future? CDs, etc.). At the time, perhaps naively, I didn?t think to rip them immediately, they deteriorated very quickly and I felt quite ripped off to be honest. Although I was still buying loads of vinyl at the time, the CDs were a good way of buying a few releases at once and still having a physical product, but it just put me off. I?ve since bought the KFA bundle on HU so have a lot of it back now (not the ?Files? CDs though).
One thing that has actually always got on my nerves about the Kniteforce family of labels is this seemingly artificial and unnecessary exclusivity thing where you have to jump through hoops to get all the content. I kind of understand ?exec editions? making people feel they are in some sort of special club or whatever and I actually personally still prefer a physical product for some reason (ideally proper CDs), but in today?s climate why limit availability or otherwise make it difficult to keep up? I?ve basically stopped buying vinyl because I frankly don?t have space and time for it these days. Not allowing people to just buy stuff digitally at a reasonable price on Bandcamp if they want to just seems deliberately awkward and irritating. People who want the vinyl will still buy it, but why limit your audience? This kind of thing might have made more sense in the old days before downloads were the norm, but it just puzzles me now. Not trying to be rude, just genuinely interested in the thinking behind it.
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Edited by - teknotik on 2020/01/31 21:36:39 |
DJ Saiyan
Junior Member
Canada
144 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
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Posted - 2020/02/01 : 11:35:45
As far as KFA goes (and Malice will go when it relaunches later this year), the Executive Editions exist to incentivize buyers to buy directly from us, with the minimal amount of profit taken by stores and distributors. This means our artists get to make a few extra bucks for their work. If you buy early, direct from us, you get an extra tune or two, and the artist gets paid more. It's a win all around. The profit margin on a digital release in 2020 is razor thin, so this gives us a bit of an edge to get people to buy in early. It's a marketing tactic, basically. We do offer the Executive Editions digitally as well as physically at the same price, so that's the buyer's choice which format they prefer.
As for the forced vinyl purchase thing, that's just how Chris wants to do things. He wants Kniteforce, and most of the sub-labels, to be vinyl labels, the way they were in the old days. It's oldskool music, delivered the oldskool way. It is also, to repeat a prior point, a LOT more profitable for the artist. Artists get paid decent money selling their music on vinyl, even with the production costs involved. If you were an artist writing an EP of tunes, would you rather take in 50 quid selling digital files, or a few hundred selling vinyl?
That's not a difficult choice to make.
And as I said, it's a release model that works. There is still a market for vinyl hardcore releases in 2020. We've sold thousands and thousands of them since starting pressing it again. If it were a model that wasn't viable, we wouldn't do it. But it is.
This does, unfortunately, result in leaving some people such as yourself who don't want the vinyl but just want the tracks out in the cold. But as has been stated, there's nothing stopping you from buying the vinyl, getting the digital files, and then selling the vinyl on to someone who wants it on Discogs to recoup some of the costs. We don't care if people do this. We actually encourage it. But if we just made digitals available for purchase, at least SOME of our regular customers would stop buying vinyl and just go digital, and that means less money for the artist, and less money for the label to be able to do cool things like the Hyper-On Experience deal, or the ongoing deal we have with JAL to remaster and repress some of their back catalogue, often with new remixes. This release format gives us the funds to be able to do things like that, which gives us more oppourtunities to put cool things like those, or the Chromatic EP represses out.
At the end of the day, we're running a business, and businesses need to see profit to continue to operate, and grow. With vinyl releases we can do that. If everything was just available digitally, we wouldn't have near as much coming in, and that would limit our freedom to continue to do newer, cooler projects.
Like my own pet project, the Ghoul Skool Halloween CD albums? Not possible without the money we're making from the vinyls. Bring back Malice (relaunching this year)? The represses? Getting big name artists like Acen or NRG or remixers like Shimon and Benny L, those would all be cost prohibitive, as those all cost money that we just plain wouldn't have to hand without the money we make on the vinyl releases
It is unfortunate that doing things this way does leave some people out in the cold who just want the digital files without having to jump through some extra hoops. But that is an unfortunate side effect of the model we have to use in order to run sustainable business, and I'm sorry about that.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't own turntables anymore, I haven't in over a decade, and I still buy every vinyl release, even though as part of Kniteforce management I get them all as digital promos anyway. Having to find a place for them with the rest of my vinyl collection in my tiny apartment is a pain, and I'll never play them out as getting 1200s for shows is just not a thing here anymore, but I still do it anyway. Because I believe in what we're doing, putting out quality music on a format MANY people want, in a way that lets us pay artists a fair wage for their work.
I'm sorry our model doesn't work for you, but it's what we need to do to run a sustainable business. Though I have been thinking about talking to Chris about beginning to put the out of stock KF/KB/Remix releases on the download stores as they sell out, so that people who really just want the digitals have the option to if they want to, Just need to balance it in a way so that it doesn't eat into vinyl sales, as that's our bread and butter. It's a delicate balancing act, and one we'll have to take great care to deliberate over, but it's something I intend to bring up once things are a little less hectic around here. No promises, of course, I only have final say on two out of like seven labels, but it's a thing I will try to push for in the future, Be forewarned though, if that idea DOES go through, it will involve a significant wait time, to allow vinyl sales to run their course. But it IS a thing I have been thinking about trying to get incorporated across the whole family of labels, not just mine, Just requires the boss to sign off on it.
I'll do my best, is what I'm getting at. :)
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You Better Run For Cover and Duck, We're Droppin Bombs Now
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DJ Saiyan
Junior Member
Canada
144 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
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Posted - 2020/02/01 : 11:41:58
I suppose I would be doing a poor job as a label manager if I didn't point you all to the newest KFA release. We've sold all but ONE of the CD singles, and the digital Executive Edition with bonus track Propa Ting will he available for a bit beyond that until Feb 9/10.
If you enjoy modern style breakbeat hardcore, this one should be right up your street, You can check it out here: https://kniteforce.bandcamp.com/album/kfa102-jack-in-box-bring-the-future
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You Better Run For Cover and Duck, We're Droppin Bombs Now
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DJ Saiyan
Junior Member
Canada
144 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
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Posted - 2020/02/01 : 11:51:23
quote:
Originally posted by MusicILove:
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Saiyan:
or the ongoing deal we have with JAL to remaster and repress some of their back catalogue,
You have my attention. :)
We announced that ages ago, and have started out by repressing remastered versions of the tunes on their Bear Necessities imprint.
But don't worry, the big stuff is coming. ;)
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You Better Run For Cover and Duck, We're Droppin Bombs Now
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djDMS
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
9,325 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
572 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2020/02/01 : 11:53:05
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Saiyan:
As far as KFA goes (and Malice will go when it relaunches later this year), the Executive Editions exist to incentivize buyers to buy directly from us, with the minimal amount of profit taken by stores and distributors. This means our artists get to make a few extra bucks for their work. If you buy early, direct from us, you get an extra tune or two, and the artist gets paid more. It's a win all around. The profit margin on a digital release in 2020 is razor thin, so this gives us a bit of an edge to get people to buy in early. It's a marketing tactic, basically. We do offer the Executive Editions digitally as well as physically at the same price, so that's the buyer's choice which format they prefer.
As for the forced vinyl purchase thing, that's just how Chris wants to do things. He wants Kniteforce, and most of the sub-labels, to be vinyl labels, the way they were in the old days. It's oldskool music, delivered the oldskool way. It is also, to repeat a prior point, a LOT more profitable for the artist. Artists get paid decent money selling their music on vinyl, even with the production costs involved. If you were an artist writing an EP of tunes, would you rather take in 50 quid selling digital files, or a few hundred selling vinyl?
That's not a difficult choice to make.
And as I said, it's a release model that works. There is still a market for vinyl hardcore releases in 2020. We've sold thousands and thousands of them since starting pressing it again. If it were a model that wasn't viable, we wouldn't do it. But it is.
This does, unfortunately, result in leaving some people such as yourself who don't want the vinyl but just want the tracks out in the cold. But as has been stated, there's nothing stopping you from buying the vinyl, getting the digital files, and then selling the vinyl on to someone who wants it on Discogs to recoup some of the costs. We don't care if people do this. We actually encourage it. But if we just made digitals available for purchase, at least SOME of our regular customers would stop buying vinyl and just go digital, and that means less money for the artist, and less money for the label to be able to do cool things like the Hyper-On Experience deal, or the ongoing deal we have with JAL to remaster and repress some of their back catalogue, often with new remixes. This release format gives us the funds to be able to do things like that, which gives us more oppourtunities to put cool things like those, or the Chromatic EP represses out.
At the end of the day, we're running a business, and businesses need to see profit to continue to operate, and grow. With vinyl releases we can do that. If everything was just available digitally, we wouldn't have near as much coming in, and that would limit our freedom to continue to do newer, cooler projects.
Like my own pet project, the Ghoul Skool Halloween CD albums? Not possible without the money we're making from the vinyls. Bring back Malice (relaunching this year)? The represses? Getting big name artists like Acen or NRG or remixers like Shimon and Benny L, those would all be cost prohibitive, as those all cost money that we just plain wouldn't have to hand without the money we make on the vinyl releases
It is unfortunate that doing things this way does leave some people out in the cold who just want the digital files without having to jump through some extra hoops. But that is an unfortunate side effect of the model we have to use in order to run sustainable business, and I'm sorry about that.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't own turntables anymore, I haven't in over a decade, and I still buy every vinyl release, even though as part of Kniteforce management I get them all as digital promos anyway. Having to find a place for them with the rest of my vinyl collection in my tiny apartment is a pain, and I'll never play them out as getting 1200s for shows is just not a thing here anymore, but I still do it anyway. Because I believe in what we're doing, putting out quality music on a format MANY people want, in a way that lets us pay artists a fair wage for their work.
I'm sorry our model doesn't work for you, but it's what we need to do to run a sustainable business. Though I have been thinking about talking to Chris about beginning to put the out of stock KF/KB/Remix releases on the download stores as they sell out, so that people who really just want the digitals have the option to if they want to, Just need to balance it in a way so that it doesn't eat into vinyl sales, as that's our bread and butter. It's a delicate balancing act, and one we'll have to take great care to deliberate over, but it's something I intend to bring up once things are a little less hectic around here. No promises, of course, I only have final say on two out of like seven labels, but it's a thing I will try to push for in the future, Be forewarned though, if that idea DOES go through, it will involve a significant wait time, to allow vinyl sales to run their course. But it IS a thing I have been thinking about trying to get incorporated across the whole family of labels, not just mine, Just requires the boss to sign off on it.
I'll do my best, is what I'm getting at. :)
Literally NOTHING to disagree with there.
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Captain Triceps
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,300 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2020/02/02 : 18:22:25
https://www.kniteforcerevolution.com/blog/
"Join our mailing list" at the top right. Weekly emails (normally on a Monday) from Luna-C. Also listen to the Luna-C show on www.kniteforceradio.com on Thursday night for the latest news and updates, The Lowercase on Saturday for the latest promos, and my show on Friday night at 8pm just because!
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Some of my remixes, original tracks and mixes here:
https://soundcloud.com/bradders-tracks-and-remix
https://soundcloud.com/bradders1982
https://soundcloud.com/paulbradley1982
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Edited by - Captain Triceps on 2020/02/02 18:22:53 |
DJ Saiyan
Junior Member
Canada
144 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
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Posted - 2020/02/04 : 05:06:32
Our website is currently borked because of forced updates not playing nice with our hosting solution, so we're building a new website.
For now I would advise not buying anything digitally from our website, except the KF and Remix remasters, which should be okay. The more recent KFA stuff should be alright as well, as it was basically all old stuff that got messed up. We removed as many of the screwed up uploads as we could, but may have missed a couple.
If you can wait, I advise waiting for the new site (which shouldn't be too long), as that will have not just the remastered digital files for Kniteforce and Remix, but also the KFA remasters that were previously only available through the bundle we did with Hardcore Underground, and at some point after we release the new Best of Malice CD album (which will include the remaining tracks digitally) available through the site as well, and those are ALL remastered too.
Also any new KFA releases, which are Bandcamp exclusive for the time being, can be purchased through that platform, but only for their two week Executive Edition periods (and on CD single, which last until they sell out), after which they go away for a month or so and then head out to the download stores and streaming platform. Those I would grab right away if you want them, as even when we have the new site up, the Executive Edition bonus tracks will still only be available for those first two weeks, as they're an incentive to buy early, and they aren't really much of an incentive if we just leave 'em up.
Joining the mailing list to keep apprised of what's coming out, when it's coming out, and in what format, is the best thing you can do really.
Sorry things are such a mess right now, we're doing our best to sort it all out as quickly as possible.
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You Better Run For Cover and Duck, We're Droppin Bombs Now
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teknotik
Starting Member
United Kingdom
2 posts
Joined: May, 2003
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Posted - 2020/02/05 : 21:11:02
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Saiyan:
As far as KFA goes...
Thanks again for the detailed reply. I guess I had never considered that releasing vinyl could be more profitable than digital and actually allow you to do more. Of course it makes sense to do it this way if true!
If time, space and money were no object I would still prefer a physical product (I would always expect digital along with vinyl now though), but I still don't see the harm in releasing digital only at some point even after an artificial delay and it is clear this would please a lot of people commenting on this thread. I'm glad it is something you are considering!
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DJ Saiyan
Junior Member
Canada
144 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
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Posted - 2020/02/06 : 01:37:17
Well the only real harm is that if there's vinyl stock left of that release, it makes it even harder to clear that out. And it does need to be cleared out, as space is an issue. We're not sitting on stacks and stack of any one release or anything, but we've put out a LOT of releases, and scattered copies of those that haven't sold out pile up quick.
But I don't see any issue with eventually releasing totally sold out releases digitally, a set time after we sell the last copy, which is what I'm going to eventually put forward to Luna-C once we're not up to our eyeballs in the Hyper-On Experience "Everything" bundle, which, oh boy don't miss that.
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You Better Run For Cover and Duck, We're Droppin Bombs Now
At The Speed of Sound
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
10,214 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2020/02/06 : 12:15:03
releasing it physically, selling out and then selling it digitally. Now that's something I can get behind.
You earn the money you've set out to make from the physical, and then keep a revenue (albite smaller and slower, but over a longer time) through the digitals.
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Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Captain Triceps
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,300 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2020/02/06 : 17:37:32
quote:
Originally posted by 9oh9:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Triceps:
https://www.kniteforcerevolution.com/blog/
"Join our mailing list" at the top right. Weekly emails (normally on a Monday) from Luna-C. Also listen to the Luna-C show on www.kniteforceradio.com on Thursday night for the latest news and updates, The Lowercase on Saturday for the latest promos, and my show on Friday night at 8pm just because!
I might be being dense, but is there anywhere the KF Radio shows are archived, or is it a case of having to tune in at the right time?
It's really down to the presenters whether they post them online or not. I have recorded all mine but not posted, The Lowercase used to stream his with video over YouTube so quite a lot of those are on there if you look for them :)
But the shows are scheduled - if you visit the site the schedule is beneath the chat box so you can see when there will a show on, and as there are presenters from all over the world you can catch someone at all weird times!
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Some of my remixes, original tracks and mixes here:
https://soundcloud.com/bradders-tracks-and-remix
https://soundcloud.com/bradders1982
https://soundcloud.com/paulbradley1982
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